There's a lot of talk in NZ about harsher sentences for crimes. In some cases this is a good idea to protect society, stand alongside the victim and hopefully help rehabilitate the criminal. There is a dark side to this however that is rising up. Its the somebody has to pay every time stuff. A lot of it comes from the christian influence in western society that has fed our natural desire to pay back. I think it goes all the way to the Cross. This where Jesus died so we could be with him and enjoy him forever. There are about 5 views of the cross with the 2 most common being the ransom and penal substitution. At risk of oversimplifying the ransom view basically says the the Devil had us and the only way the God could get us back was to pay a ransom....the death of Jesus. The Penal substitution basically says that God had to punish sin and that Jesus took all our punishment so we were free.....this is the most common or well known view. Sadly this view gives rise to the line that someone has to pay before forgiveness can be given. Therefore whether its attacking Afghanistan to pay them back for the twin towers or harsher sentences for everyone its all consistent with this view.
Recently in the Amish country of the USA there was a terrible killing of some Amish by a killer who was not Amish. Normally of course there would be all the baying for blood etc. The Amish however said the killers mother would be devastated at losing her son so they visited her to offer her condolences and support, said they would give her any and all money they got as a result of the killings and went with her to her sons funeral.....wow!
I think they showed that mercy and forgiveness does not have to come only after punishment but can come instead of punishment. The Hindu have a proverb that goes something like this "Its an amazing moment when you let the prisoner free only to find you were the prisoner".
I have no doubt that I am saved by the sacrifice of Jesus but to limit it to our understanding is bizzar and I think will always lead to this sort of wrong thinking. Its something God (including Jesus) did that at best we understand only in part...its probably a bit of all 5 views and a lot more besides. I will understand it in heaven and not fully before. Until the Amish show us what God is like to us and how we can be to each other! I struggle with this......I want to be like them but its not easy...of course they never said it was easy for themselves! The struggle is all part of trying to follow Jesus.
This entry was posted by Angry and Shallow, on
Tuesday, February 20, 2007.
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6:51 pm
Great thoughts about the increasing feeling that punishment is needed before forgiveness. I would add to that a model which does not come into our views of the cross, except for some of the more triumphalism centred narratives (a particularly over the top Carmen CD comes to mind).
That is the concept of revenge - that people must be "made to pay", not just receive a reasonable punishment, but must be made to suffer, be broken, repent and regret that they were ever born before we deign to forgive them.
Eg you look at the fascination with the death videos for Saddam Hussein and the outrage over his refusal to effectively beg for forgiveness. Its ghoulish in the extreme and reflects very badly on those that do the punishing.
Oops, seem to have rabbited on a bit. Anyway, good post.
9:25 pm
The Jesus death and resurrection story - what we do understand?. Could it be boiled down to a means of going to heaven instead of hell, after death? Then you could get into discussion of what hell is, or indeed what heaven is. But could these be reduced to: heaven is the desirable place to be after death, possibly pleasurable/relational/rewarding; hell is undesirable, possibly a place of suffering/loneliness/no rewards. When we are "saved by the sacrifice of Jesus", we get to go to heaven - but only if we believe (or maybe everyone gets saved in the end).
If the above is too simple-minded, add just enough to it to clarify, but no more.
Do you ever hold in your mind a critical view of this or any of your beliefs, or would that be considered doubt and therefore a negative emotion that must not be allowed to grow? What makes you believe this? Fear of hell, desire for heaven, benefits for your present life, indwelling of God? A combination of all these? Would you believe this stuff if the only benefit was in this life, and there was no eternal afterlife? What if reincarnation or re-birth is true?
Why hold one metaphysical belief and not another? They all appear ridiculous. I don't see the advantage of the Christian one(s).
Instead of me performing my usual piss-weak "job" on your ideas, Darryl, why don't you post a comment that critically tears apart the meaning of the resurrection story? Can you present the anti-Christian side and argue it well?
9:10 am
Crikey I might be pushing my luck here but as a lot of people seem to read your blogs, I thought i would cross the line of rudeness and use this time to freely advertise a foodbank in Wellington that needs your help
A team of people have set up a foodbank which is operating out of Global Café, next to Glover Park in Wellington.
We are situated right in the heart of Cuba Mall and are in a prime spot to be able to reach out and give a helping hand to those that may be in a low point in their lives. We don’t want to turn anyone away who comes to ask asking for food parcels, and we need your support.
Food donations are coming in weekly, but sometimes in this busy world it is hard to remember to bring along an item of food. Many of you have expressed an interest in assisting with this Foodbank, and so the Blueprint Foodbank now has a bank account so donations can be made. This is an awesome way of making regular donations, especially for those of us with busy lives!
If you would like to give via A/P here is the account
number:
02 0524 134771 03
This is a Blueprint church account so you MUST put "Foodbank" into the
particulars.
The most important thing about giving to the foodbank is not the amount of money you give, but the consistency. It may not seem like much but a weekly donation of $2.00 is enough for us to get this thing off the ground. The
Foodbank team would really
appreciate your support.
If you have any other questions, or would like me to send you a copy of the
formal proposal so you know how your money will be spent please let me know.
Thank you for considering helping us feed the less fortunate families in Wellington
debsphillips@paradise.net.nz
(THANKS....and sorry for briefly taking over your thing)
:)
2:40 pm
Being a universlist, this topic really facinates me. I, perhaps like Darryl, don't really know why it was so important for Jesus to have to die... and die such a cruel death. I have some ideas but nothing solid..... I hope this conversation continues.
Oh, and I'd love to hear the other views as well.... if you've got the time.
And I've half-read Sam's post about your talk you gave at Blueprint.... sounded good :)
10:59 am
02 0524 0134771 03.
Please note the correct bank account number above. It just has an extra 0 in it.
Thank you to all those who have expressed an interest in starting up an AP so far.
The people of Wellington appreciate it.
11:52 am
Dan....very good point. Isn't it tragic that we have not only turned God into a "must punish so He feels holy God" we have exagerated this into a "He must not only punish but He must get revenge and make us suffer for doing wrong God". Wrong, wrong, wrong!
11:56 am
David in the end i choose to believe what I believe as do you. We each hold our beliefs based on a range of experiences, beliefs and choices. Some of them seem consistant to us but not to others and some seem inconsistant to ourselves. In the end I have chosen to believe what I do and by implication chosen not to believe certain things....as have you. Good aye!
11:58 am
The Rock......the best quote I heard on universalism was where a famous theologian was asked if he was a universalist. He replied "I'm not.....but I hope God is". I would say "me too!"
I appreciate your comments.
11:59 am
Debs....fantastic stuff....keep it up!
12:23 am
It's one thing to have beliefs that are grounded in observation, evidence and experience - reasonable beliefs.
The Jesus man-god-saviour story seems totally bizarre - what is the motivation for believing in that?
2:13 pm
That Hindu proverb is fantastic.. what a beautiful way of capturing the power of forgiveness to transform the forgiver.
8:25 pm
What sort of impoverished thinking requires a belief in a man-god-sacrifice story to be able to practise forgiveness.
Truly authentic people practise forgiveness because they understand its power and value solely by the use of their own insight.
The psychological crutch of religious faith is an inferior substitute for insight obtained through observation and analysis of one's own mind.
4:43 pm
I think this is exactly right. Out of extreme pain comes the opportunity for incredible beauty.
I've never considered myself a skeptic, but recently I've started to realise that my understanding and belief of the miracles Jesus performs is pretty limited. I've seen very little in my life that makes me identify with water being turned into wine, or the feeding of the five-thousand. What stirs my spirit and inspires me is the mere acts of Jesus restoring peoples dignity and freedom.
With the woman caught in adultery, nakedness and violence is turned into a beautiful act of grace. At the cross, blood, sweat and shit becomes our salvation.
As the enemy comes to pervert and distort what is good, God's heart is to restore and redeem. As I journey further in my faith I discover the most amazing movements of God often come amongst the most indescribable pain.
Slightly off topic rants end...
2:53 pm
Excellent thoughts Scottie.
9:19 pm
"...and shit becomes our salvation".
Not just any shit. It has to be Holy Shit.