The Christmas statistics are out! The season that we celebrate the Birth of Jesus is the most dangerous time of the year for women and children. The refuges are full and cannot cope with the victims of domestic violence. This of course is evil on a number of fronts.
Firstly the fact that people are not safe in their own homes, have to find refuge and are beaten is evil.
Secondly the fact that it happens at the time of the year we celebrate Christs coming to earth and yet christians are largely silent is evil.
Thirdly the fact that those who give refuge and care to these victims are struggling to cope and their resources are running out is evil.
I cannot see any redeeming things in this.
Maybe its time we stood in solidarity with these women and children and made Christmas a time when we said no to violence both publicly and privately, resourced the refuges and faced the horrors that we currently ignore. Maybe then we would bring Christ back into Christmas...........................................sadly I'm not hopeful!
This entry was posted by Angry and Shallow, on
Thursday, February 01, 2007.
You can leave your response.
10:09 am
I'm not sure of blogging protocol, so forgive me if this is out of line, but a group of us women from Blueprint Chruch are organising gift packs for women who are currently in womens refuges and also working in the sex industry. We are trying to rustle up support and thought your post on the disgrace about christians not helping our women warrented me posting this flyer. Forgive me if I am out of line.
"Valentines Day is coming up! For some it is about chocolate hearts and roses, but for others this day is a reminder of love that ended in hurt, or a love that they have never experienced.
For this reason, a group of woman from the Blueprint Community in inner-city Wellington are putting
together gift boxes for those that have been affected by domestic abuse, abusive relationships and for women working in the sex industry.
We'd love your support!
Any donation you can offer towards this act of love is very much appreciated!
Money donated will be spent on flowers, beauty products and chocolates which will make up a gift box. We don't know at this stage how many gift boxes we'll be making (one box per lovely lady) but the more money we receive the more gift boxes we can make!!
If you would like to donate to this initiative please transfer your donation into the following bank account before 10 Feb (It is under one of the girls names but is solely an account for the above purpose):
Account Name: C Leighton
Account Number: 06-0501-0948756-30
This is one way you can show support and love. We would appreciate your help.
5:18 pm
Hi Debs. I don't know the protocols either but who gives a rats.......! It's a great idea. I'll put a link on my site to yours. I'll put through a donation as well. The best way to fight evil is by doing good.
6:44 pm
Hey debs, tell me where some of those dead-beat dads live. I'll go around and have a "discussion" with them.
Enough is enough. Time to form some vigilante groups. Onward Christian soldiers! Don't wait around for Jesus to fix it.
10:17 pm
David,I would challenge you to consider that the reasons domestic violence is present in our society is slighty more complex than the fact that someone is a "dead beat". In fact, I would be so bold as to suggest that maybe some of the frustrations these perpetrators face is a result on having words like "dead beat" spoken over them for the majority of their lives.
In order for us to address these issues we need to be brave and face the reality of our culture, look at the psychosocial issues that effect abusers and the abused and put strategies in place to interrupt these cycles.
By insinuating that you, or anyone else should inflict violence on someone else to correct their behaviour is simply repeating the cycle of violence that angers you so much.
3:46 pm
Naomi... I hear what you're saying and I agree to some degree but I have to admit that sometimes I really do look at some people and their behaviour and I think, 'He needs a good hiding.' Sometimes nothing lets a person know that what they are doing is unacceptable and wrong better than a good straight jab and a bleeding nose. Blame it on the hidings I got growning up (which I have no problems with and I love my parents fiercely), my typical bloke attitude or whatever you want - sometimes, some people need the bash.
6:03 pm
I think that's a load of crap.
Surely this attitude can be used to defend domestic violence then (and all other violence) by simply saying "nothing teaches my wife a lesson like a bleeding nose" or "nothing teaches my little child a lesson like big red welts on his backside from being hit with my belt, or an electrical cord or some piping".
Well why don't we all just smash someone in the face when we don't like what they're doing? Sorry dude but I had hoped that the human race had evolved slighty more adequate tools of communication. And if not then that should be the aim.
I'd also be interested to see some biblical justification for your stance - just who exactly gives you the authority to inflict violence on another?? And does that give them the right to bash you when they don't like what you're doing?
9:54 pm
The rock, Sometimes we may FEEL like someone needs a good bash but it's pretty scarey if we act on our feelings only. We've been given a mind and rational thought and sometimes people fail to action that.
I understand the desire to 'give someone a bash'. For example, if anyone ever does anything bad to my daughter, my first desire would be to smash that person up real bad. And in the past ive used anger and agression in a wrong way and it was my response to hurt and frustration.
So i am extremely grateful that now i have a new life and know God so that all areas of my life can be worked on, slowly but surely everyday.
Just because i might want to do something i aim to check my attitude, see if matches up with my new beliefs (ie the word) and take it from there. Not that Im a saint in any way shape or form.
So yeah as Naomi says, one bad attitude toward a certain people group is pretty dangerous in that it leads to many bad attitutudes toward many many people.
9:56 pm
www.womensrefuge.org.nz
To shed some reality on this situation guys.
10:08 pm
Sorry i dont know how to go back to my post and add to it.
Anyway - on the womens refuge site there is a link to click on which says "if you are afraid of someone knowing you have been on this site" and it teaches the woman how to delete the history. Now this might sound odd to some people but when you live in fear you live in fear everyday.
I went to a refuge in Guy Fawkes night when I was 18 years old. I remember making a phone call for help when my then boyfriend had gone out for fish n chips. I knew I had about 10 minutes to talk and i was fully fully packing myself and looking out the window the whole time in case he came back and found me on the phone telling someone about it. Then the day I finally went for help was the most terrifying time ever. I'd read somewhere to have your passport and some money stashed away so you couild get it quickly if need be. I was so scared that he would find it and 'know' i was 'up to something'. A car came to get me, and this guys parents lived across the road, and part of the fear was them seeing me get into the car and leave. This was probably 3rd generation violence, the guys father was really violent, and because they lived across the road from us, it was double trouble.
If computers had been around then (ahem!) i too would have lived in fear of him discovering the sites i looked at. I remember i got 'in big trouble' one day becasue i had got a self help book out of the library which talked about a womens right to not live in fear. He hated it and felt threatened by it. The violence started out as emotional stuff, intimidation, threatening to kill himself if i left, etc, but quickly led to physical violence.
I feel no fear toward him now but only sadness for this poor boy that grew up seeing his mother bashed all the time. One christmas his mum and dad were drinking hard out and she 'got lippy' and the dad told her to watch it "or I'll smash your head through that fucking christmas tree". There was a 3 year old daughter too and i just lay on that couch soothing her and trying to get her to go to sleep.
Violence appears in many shapes and forms guys.
Thats all I have to say about that right now.
11:35 pm
It's interesting that a comment about implied violence against so called "dead-beat" dads is taken somewhat seriously. Possibly because I'm male and there is an expectation in our society that males "should" have a little anger in them.
Let me state, seriously this time, that anger is never an appropriate response to another's anger. In fact, I don't even believe there is ever a situation in which anger is justified.
People behave less rationally under the influence of anger. So, one must first remove the anger from one's own mind before attempting to reduce another's anger. However, the opposite of anger, patience, requires continual cultivation and practice - the degree of difficulty proportional to the magnitude of the anger faced.
By the way, I've found various Buddhist techniques highly useful in understanding and dealing with anger (probably because Buddhism seeks to cultivate the mind through personal application and insight, rather than relying on an external entity like God to help).
11:30 am
Wow... that seemed to have stirred up the nest!! I never said that we should all act impulsively on our emotions and let them run our lives. Let's not throw common sense out the window....
I grew up where my family helped friends into Women's Refuge and even re-located some women to other parts of the country. I will never think it's OK to hit women. But I don't have a problem with kids getting disciplined or a man getting put in his place. Yes, I got hit with my Dad's belt, the electrical cord and the vacuum pipe, just like a lot of my friends did. Does that mean I hit my wife? Or go and bash anyone who makes me angry? No. But I learnt some lessons, that's for sure. Like respecting other peole, especially elders. Like not sulking to get what I want. Like how to lose. Like having consideration for others.
I've seen drunken idiots stopped and put in their place by one punch - and I've also seen people trying to reason and placate these same idiots while other people suffer at the expense. I've seen bullies and trouble makers stopped in their tracks by someone who wasn't scared to stand up to them on a physical level while the well-wishers and hopeful thinkers tried to coerce and negotiate the outcome. Wars have been fought, freedom has been purchased and lives have been saved throughout history when good people have stood up and said, 'If this evil is going to continue, it's in for a fight.'
BTW, there are plenty of violent people in the world who were not abused or hit just as there are people who were and are not violent. And for the record, I do believe idealistically that peaceful means can and will overcome violence. But life experiences have also shown me that a quick jab, while not ideally right, can achieve some success.
Oh, and biblical evidence.... c'mon now. Sampson acted violently under the spirit of God. David found one of his wives on his way to kill her husband for mis-treating his men. God opened the earth up to swallow people, stuck them down with leprosy or simply killed them where they stood. Elijah had the prophets of Baal executed. The Israelites went and wiped out whole cities and towns on God's orders. Achan was stoned along with his whole household. Annanias and Sapphira were struck down dead. Oh, and apparently, some people are going to spend all eternity in eternal fire and torment. Is that enough violence in the bible for you?
6:39 pm
The ROCK, despite your explanation I still can't get it, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. All I can say is that although what you feel works for you, it certainly doesn't work for alot of people, myself included. I was raised in a very violent environment, and all it did for me was make me fearful and anxious, scared to death that I'd get the crap kicked out of me for misbehaving.
Also, I would doubt that the everyday violence we hear about has the same justification biblical violence has, because we are making a judgement to use violence based on our own knowledge. I was more interested to hear about biblical justification to use violence, maybe in the new testament, that would support your claims that violence can be positive.
David that was an awesome post, you never know who might benefit from your words of wisdom! You should share that with others because it could really help people. I would say though that most Christians also use personal application and insight in their faith, at least I do, otherwise I'd be waiting for God to rescue me whenever something went wrong - which is a nice idea but usually doesn't happen that directly!! :) David, I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on things, you should log on to the forum on this site www.blueprintchurch.com and have a big rant, it'd be awesome!
9:16 pm
OK... sorry Naomi but what a crock!! I gave over half-a-dozen examples of where violence is used in the bible as a means to an end and you simply try to ignore it??? How is David going off to kill Naboth any different to the 'everyday violence we hear about'? Or the way Elijah executed over 100 prophets of Baal? (BTW 100 is a lot of people. Think of the mothers and fathers, the children, the wives these executed people left behind. Imagine if 100 pastors were executed tomorrow.) Oh... Annanias and Sapphira are from the New Testament as is the traditional view of eternal torment. And if you believe that teaching than you must know it has more violence than the total history of the world all put together!! Do you know the bible at all or did you think I wasn't actually going to come back with anything? Address the issue that violence is used and commanded in the bible, don't just try to trivialise it. Especially when you brought it up.
Now you say that my explanation 'has worked for some people'... try the whole planet. Remember WWII? You cannot deny the effectiveness that violence has had in stopping evil throughout history. Is it the answer? My heart says 'no' but my head cannot imagine what the world would be like if good people hadn't stood up throughout the ages and thrown the gauntlet down before the evil powers of their time.
I know we will probably never agree... but the examples of violence as a means to an end both historiclly and bibically are real. Take an honest look at them instead of trying to brush them off as though they weren't there.
1:25 am
Some of those Biblical examples of violence are not examples of anger. That's right, violence is not necessarily the same as anger.
Let me clarify. I'd define anger as an agitated state of mind that exaggerates the faults of others and wishes to harm. It's a state of mind that leads to less rational conduct, or can lead to completely irrational behaviour. This is why anger is never the best response. So if someone, facing a violent person, quite rationally and calmly determines that he can overcome that violence by applying force himself, then he is not acting out of anger. Raising your voice at someone to jolt them into some sense, if done without the motivation to harm and done in a controlled way, is not anger. Of course, another rational response to violence may be to flee.
If I become angry when I see injustice being done, say a man beating his wife, and I act on my anger, then I'm going to be less effective in helping the wife, and stopping the violent man. I'll be more effective and be more able to rationally and optimally help if I base my reaction on positive states of mind, in this case compassion for the woman, for example.
Looking at this from a cultivation point-of-view: if I can cultivate - meditate on and put into practice - positive states of mind, like love, compassion, patience, strength, and use these positive states of mind when facing uncomfortable situations, then I'm going to contribute far more effectively to my own and other people's happiness.
5:48 am
Firstly, David you have some awesome points in your post. It's really good to hear a mans perspective.
The ROCK - give me the actual scripture where "violence is commanded in the bible". And here I'm talking about man to man, and not anger (which David has explained rightly is very different) but violence. Where is the bible does it say that if you're unhappy with someone or their behaviour that the best way to deal with it is with violence? That's totally contrary to everything I've picked up from the Word so far. I was of the impression we were to love others as we love ourselves, and as I wouldn't want the crap kicked out of me I wouldn't kick the crap out of anyone else. I'm pretty sure you're clutching at straws here mate.
10:21 pm
Again Naomi, you are unable to to honestly look at the numerous examples provided and provide clear explanation. You can look up the scripture yourself, I know that all the examples I gave are there, as will anyone else who reads their bible.
David was ANGRY with Naboth and was on his way to KILL HIM before Naboth's wife - Abigail - met him on the way. Is there any condemnation of what David was about to do? No. Is there any command from God to go and kill this man? No. He did it cos he was angry at how this man had treated him. And what about Sampson? This guy went and took 300 foxes, lit a torch on each of their tails and set them out in his enemies fields. Then, when they came against him for it, he slaughtered them. In fact, the bible says that the Spirit of the Lord came upon him to give him the ability to commit very violent acts. He killed 1,000 men with the jawbone of a donkey!! Ananias and Sapphira (from the NT) lied about how much money they received from a property sale and they dropped down dead. God has used violence in the past to see His purposes fulfilled. Now, if I go and drop a man who is beating his wife, how do you know that God is not using me to fulfill his purpose?? Can you tell me how you know that God hasn't actually given me His Spirit to enable me to use violence on that man?? He's done it before.
BTW, I never claimed that the bible teaches that 'if you're unhappy with someone or their behaviour that the best way to deal with it is with violence' (that a direct quote from you). What I have said is that there are situations in the bible where God has allowed, commanded and used violence to see His purposes fulfilled. You are yet to refute that. Clutching at straws??? You are yet to even attempt to address the issue.
Finally, if you want more scripture where God commands violence.... just read thru Exodus & Leviticus sometime.
12:07 am
I'm not talking about Old Testament vengence, mate! There are a crap load of passages in the Old Testament that we do not apply to our lives now because of what Jesus did on the cross for us, like all those instructions in Leviticus to do this or don't do that. Jesus has set us free from all of that.
I'm not denying the fact that there was violence in the bible - that would be a stupid as saying there's no violence in the world today. I know those examples exist, I'm not stupid, I just think that you're twisting the context to suit your own ideas about things.
I was interested to have you produce some direct scripture (not your own paraphrasing) to support your views because I think your attitude is wrong, irresponsible and dangerous. Here is some scripture for you to back this up:
"My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires"
James 1:19
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbour as yourself'. If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other"
Galatians 5:13-15
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, goodness, faithfulness, GENTLENESS and SELF-CONTROL. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other"
Galations 5:22-26
"Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else"
1 Thess 5:12
Nehemiah 9:17
Ephesians 4:32
1 Peter 3:8
The list goes on and on. There are very clear instructions in the Word about how we are to treat others. You said that violence was commanded in the Bible, but that is wrong. I have to keep on at this mate because you're saying God is commanding us to act in a way that is conflicting with those scriptures above. That is really off because it misrepresents Christians as being a bunch of nutters who think that violence is good and solves problems, which is totally doesn't.
10:08 pm
OK... this is my last post on this.... yes, the bible does teach that we should love one another, do unto other as we would have them do unto us etc... BUT you cannot deny that God HAS COMMANDED people to use violence in His name. God HIMSELF has been violent in His actions if you read the bible. Did not Elisha call out bears to savage a group of boys simply for calling him 'baldy'? Did not God strike down Annaias and Sapphira? (I keep using this one cos you refuse to look at it - it's in the NEW TESTAMENT - look it up.) Didn't God send a flood to wipe out all but 8 of mankind? Did not God COMMAND for Achan AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY to be stoned in Joshua? Did God not give strength to David to slay Goliath? Oh.. but that's in the OT you say?? Well in Malachi 3:6 He says 'I the LORD do NOT CHANGE.'
And it doesn't matter if I paraphrase. I don't have the patience to go and find the exact verse for you but the truth is... it's in there. I'm not making stories up or exaggerating scripture and I am definitely not twisting anything... whether you like it or not, God has used violent means to fulfill His purposes. I'm simply telling you what is in the bible...you can try and justify it if you like but I challenge you to take off your rose-tinted glasses and read the word for what it says....cos' the examples of God either commanding violence or using it Himself or too numerous to be brushed aside. You can choose to deny it... that's your choice.
9:40 am
ummmmmmmmmmm...."Dr Dr I think I need glasses!"
"You certainly do Sir, this is a fish n chip shop!"
Anyone know any jokes? (diffuse diffuse)
10:45 am
I totally agree that we need to find any other means to prevent any physical violence in society/world/universe etc...unfortunately due to our nature that is not the case. I don't believe Christians should be passive either and sit idly by and say 'she'll be right' in tough situations where physical force maybe used but I do agree that reaction via anger should be avoided at all cost. I am often baffled at the thought God uses violence for his purposes but if so - what can we really do?! Is not all things worked together for good? All agree that Jesus was a reflection of how life should be lived - but if God commanded him to use force, would he have done so? Actually come to mention it Jesus was soo angry about the temple being set up as a market place he tore the place up and can I safely mention it was done out of anger?! (is not that in the New Testament). I guess its a bit hard to compare since we may assume he didn't physically intend to hurt anyone (well - maybe? who really knows) but the very point he used physical force through his rage and anger is the main agenda here. Actions speak louder than words and its evident then that Jesus was being real almost human like to express that same frustration. We don't live in a florescent world and Jesus knew that - so he reacted in the best way that would portray to people 'this is not on'. All I'm saying is although I don't like it and would avoid violence at all cost - its definitely not the means to all evils.
Ani
4:12 pm
So God cracks the shits when things don't go his way? After a couple of thousand years of such poor example-setting behaviour, Jesus chucks a spaz in a temple, and God kills his own son (or commits suicide depending on how you understand the trinity).
Examples us to follow - no thanks.
I don't want that primitive Christian shit in my life.
Fuck off God, and fuck off Jesus.
4:50 pm
Wow what a discussion, I'll throw mine in for what it's worth. David I really appreciated what you said about the difference between violence and anger.
"Let me state, seriously this time, that anger is never an appropriate response to another's anger. In fact, I don't even believe there is ever a situation in which anger is justified."
My thinking on this (as unripe as it may be) is that yes acting out of anger is not helpful. Feeling anger is human but what you do with that is a different thing. I feel angry when I read stats like the above, but rocking up and getting stuck into the 'offender' isn't a response that I think that Jesus would make. The Jesus I see when I read the bible would protect the victim, not lash out physically at the aggressor. (Correct me if I am wrong)
Also just a comment on the biblical references used, I think it is important to but Samson and the other boys into some context, that God raised up Judges to punish (for lack of a better word) the people/nations around the Israelites, now reading that as a way to act is a little step is it not?
I do not understand some of the other stories about God wiping out nations, but let’s at least be careful about how we use the bible to back up ideas and thoughts.
David thanks for your perspective within the discussion, I appreciate the way you often throw things on their head from looking at things from other angles.
5:17 pm
Hi all
Sorry I have been so silent...been away and catching up on other stuff. Great reading the different views. I don't have a problem with anger...it's an emotion and like all other emotions and can be good, bad or neutral. I do have a problem with violence....especially as is bias towards it ...not good but true. David i dont agree with your summary of God or jesus but i do see how in part it is a logical conclusion. What I know is that He stands with the oppressed, beaten and the victims far more than the oppressor and beater...even if they think God is on their side. Its a good model for me to follow (or at least try to). darryl
8:45 pm
This is something I don't understand. How can you continue to accept the Bible as a superior moral authority? On this thread, the violence of God as described in the OT has been pointed out. Reactions to this vary from puzzlement to "I don't understand".
It seems as if people hone in on the positive bits of the Bible - and these exist, I'm not denying that the Bible contains gems of wisdom and good moral lessons - and ignore the nasty bits. But you can't ignore them, even if they are not read out in Churches or form part of regular bible study. It requires tortuous thinking and twisting of logic to marry the nasty aspects of God's character with His good side.
I get the impression that Christians feel as if they have to take this stance with the Bible. I get the impression that they are constrained in how they are able to think about this collection of books. They are told this is God's word, that's what Christians believe, and so you must believe it too. God's works says God gets angry so we try to think of anger as acceptable. God was violent to selected groups of people; do we find violence acceptable? Only if God commands it? But isn't this some kind of hypocritical double-standard: do as I say, not as I do? Perhaps its better just to think about the kind and loving Jesus figure instead (putting to one side his angry temple fit).
The idea that in the NT God's love is now emphasied just doesn't wash. If violence is no longer part of God's character, what has happened to the idea of an unchanging God?
And yet, who says that the Bible is special? Tradition? It seems obvious that the Bible is a creation of humans and is not any better at revealing the nature of God than any other source.
I think you're pushing shit up hill, trying to sell this Christian message. I feel sorry for you, Daryl, as you struggle with this. What will happen one day when you wake up as an old man realizing what a load of bollocks it is?
12:08 pm
David....don't feel sorry for me mate. I'm having a blast! The Bible is important to me...even though there are bits I dont like, want to agree with or understand.
I don't intend to defend it just personally keep working with it.