Recently I saw a Gospel presentation by a young up and coming evangelist. Very passionate, well presented and genuine. It had a good step by step power point and was very logical. I realised that it is what I would have done a few years ago. If i leave aside the presentation style etc there is one very disturbing aspect of it that many Christians believe and that has a profound affect on so much of what we do. Basically the presentation showed how God must punish sin and we can now avoid this as God has punished Jesus in our place. Part of the logic was "how would you feel if a man who murdered someone you loved was let off by a judge without any punishment? It would leave you feeling mad and wanting justice. Well God is the same. He cannot let it go unpunished". Very logical and VERY WRONG!!!!!!
This belief that punishment must always come before forgiveness is all pervasive. It is also not always true. I know of cases where the victims and their families have forgiven the perpetrator without any punishment. Recently we had a tragic case where two dogs killed a woman. They were out roaming. The family forgave the owner of the dogs. Another family of a boy killed by a dangerous driver met with him and forgave him and asked the court to let him off!!! This is actually more common than we think, particularly among no westernised cultures. Jesus himself did this on an umber of occasions including the woman caught in adultery and Zachaeus the tax collector.
I believe this wrong belief that God must punish before forgiving leads to the Christian rights constant desire to give longer prison sentences, get back whoever gets them....particularly if they are Muslims and a fascination with defining everything as right or wrong....the wrong must be known so it can be punished.
I believe totally in the Death and Resurrection of Jesus. I know that it enables me to be safe with Jesus both now and forever. What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can fully, is exactly it happened on the cross. The various views of the cross are never complete and at best are pointers to the type of thing that happened. When we make them a complete understanding of the cross we end up projecting our own desires on the greatest act of love that has ever occurred.... and in doing so dilute it.
He is nothing like us.......lets remember that as we try to be more like Him.
This entry was posted by Angry and Shallow, on
Monday, April 30, 2007.
You can leave your response.
6:59 pm
We were having dinner with friends of ours (and yours) the other night with some wine and theological comparing of notes between people of different backgrounds. As so often happens sexuality was the litmus test of different beliefs, but an offhand comment about theologies of the cross and the responding looks of horror suggested that we often focus on the less important matters when there is a whole conversation to be had about the core of what we claim to believe.
Needless to say, that conversation might warrant an extra bottle or two.
7:28 pm
The sound of an extra two bottles makes me want to be there!
It is amazing how we accept some major fundamentals without question. In fact to question and explore them, the cross is an exmple, often gets you labled as liberal, conservative or whatever thereby ensuring no further exploration is had. Its almost as though we think God can't handle it!
6:09 pm
Wow!.. That's the best thing I have read in a long time!
I just spent the weekend going over such stuff after following Emergant Villages link to N.T Wright on penal substitution. Really, it did my head. I wanted to come up with a statement of exactly what I believed, but just could not.
But you are right. What happened on the cross was supernatural and divine. It cannot be understood fully in human terms. We now look through a "glass darkly".
What we have though are magnificent types and symbols the show as that through whatever happened, the old has been made new, and we now have a hope and a future.
Thank you for allowing me to not need a formulation.
2:53 pm
Ooh, I like you! I think I like where this thinking is at. I don't know if it entirely sits well with me but I do know that it is something that people in youth ministry need to think a lot more about because it is crucial to how we present the gospel to young people... ie grace or manipulation? I perticularly resonate with your final paragraph. I don't have anything to add to the conversation at this stage except for my support of having the conversation. (which may be a paradox)
8:33 pm
Exactly! How can you forgive a sin if you have already punished someone for it??? I'd hate to see what it's like to not be forgiven!!
Also, just because someone else comes along and pays the penalty (as is often taught that Jesus did for us) how is the debt then considered forgiven? It isn't forgivenm at all...it's paid!!
All part of why I'm universalist...:)
9:24 pm
The Rock...to steal a quote from someone else......if you ask me if I'm a universalist I would say "I'm not but I hope God is!". Keep it up mate.
10:56 pm
I would just like to add my gratitude to some of the other reponses. I have had a similar experience in that I am a committed Christian attending the Cathedral in Durham where I am at University. Many of my friends are more Evangelical, and very kindly invite me to their 'Intorductory' talks, where the overarching message is that Jesus died in our place, took God's anger and ONLY through believing that can we enter a true relationship with God. This has always seemed odd to me, so thank you for creating a nice, simple view on this horribly complex issue!
10:33 am
Thanks Anonymous......a few years ago I would have been one of those friends.
This discussion is continuing on http://shmatt.com if interested.
5:04 pm
Oh F%*^ man I give up.
"Jesus died in our place, took God's anger and ONLY through believing that can we enter a true relationship with God."
Yeah...and? Isnt that true?
Christianity is too F*^&ing complicated for me. "Oh no Debs, you're wrong, Christianity is the most simple message in the world" blah blah blah. No matter how many times i hear that, it is still not true for me. Uncomplicated!! Yeah right!!
Well I just dont get it, but you know what, thats sort of good, cos im gonna go look to the BIBLE to see what the correct story is, and I dont seem to read the bible lately, so thanks for confusing me.
Maybe its just what I needed to start looking at Gods word again.
12:47 pm
Note these comments:
"...with some wine..."
"Needless to say, that conversation might warrant an extra bottle or two."
These comments describe pleasure-seeking behaviour that is indistinguishable from the world of non-Christian behaviour.
No wonder people make comments like "Tired, sick and tired of crap Christians, including myself, who live crappy selfish lives."
What difference does the "Christian lifestyle" make? Fuck all, as far as I can see.